Crossed Field Antenna Test

AM Radio discussion. Directional arrays are FUN!

Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby K9EZ » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:50 am

RGORJANCE wrote:I loved the Folgers Coffee Can anology. Which brings me to a slight diversion of the subject. "Back in the day" when beer cans were made of real steel, there was the "Beer Can Vertical". I built one. I lived in Tulsa and one of our neighbors just happenred to be a "non drinker of religious proportions". She complained to my dad, who was not an abstainer, and that resulted in the vertical remaining vertical, with all it's various logos in full view. We made certain that the beer cans were empty prior to soldering them end to end.

Back to subject.

Fossil



Oh no no no. I am not done with this yet.

Isnt that called a beverage antenna? 8)
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby RGORJANCE » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:51 am

OK! Now that you have thrown down the gauntlet, I challenge that description as these were emptys! It is therefore a DEPLETED BEVERAGE antenna.

Nice one , Kent - that got a belly laugh! :D :D :D

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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Kelly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Fossil[/quote]


Oh no no no. I am not done with this yet.

Isnt that called a beverage antenna? 8)[/quote]

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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby mrmodulation » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:42 am

Yep it's a Cabbary CFA alright!

These things are worthless as proven many years ago (2000 - 2001) we had one built and tested here in Sydney.

Sydney CFA for sale:
http://www.antennex.com/Stones/st0600/sydney.htm

Here is another take on the idea by Ted Hart W5QJR patent holder of the EH antenna:
http://www.eh-antenna.com/index.html

EH AM Broadcast Antenna Test:
http://www.eh-antenna.com/AM_intro.html
"The prototype AM broadcast EH Antenna was located in Eatonton, Georgia, and tested in accordance with FCC procedures in 2003
by Stu Graham, a broadcast consultant. For convenience it was located at a low height (one-tenth wavelength),yet it offered great performance."


I set up a new topic on this forum a while back about these:
http://www.broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2969

NECRAT posted a picture of a CFA antenna a while back and it appears to be the same one:
http://www.broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2947
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby NECRAT » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:28 am

mrmodulation wrote:NECRAT posted a picture of a CFA antenna a while back and it appears to be the same one:
http://www.broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2947


I did, however, because I was given incorrect information, I was under the assumption it was being used for 940, not 1630.

(The photo from a while back was from a friend, the more recent one is mine.)
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby mrmodulation » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:28 am

Would be interesting to see how this performs being as low to the ground as it is, the CFA in sydney was mounted high on the roof of a building
and when it was connected to ground by a long cipper pipe the thing went crazy. The tuning was all over the place and it was very unstable especially
in rainy conditions...

Let's see what develops wit this...

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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Kelly » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:41 am

The blog from the antennaX site you posted makes the point that the CFA antenna in Sydney was technically grounded and had little change of radiating. I find that statement interesting (yet accurate I suppose) because the 160M one that I played with over ten years ago had a design that specified the goofy cylinder/tophat required spacing above the horizontal plate at a precise distance to create the "H-field". The "phasing" network fed the plate below the tophat something like 15 degrees phased from the hat. The problem that I encountered (besides the thing having a snowballs chance in Hell of working), was there is no solid nor proven calculation to determine the distance between the horizontal plate and the bottom of the tophat cylinder. What I ended up trying were threaded nylon bolts, washers and nuts to create an adjustable set of legs which I could raise and lower the tophat, adjusting the clearance from the horizontal plate. Of course then the problem was the amount of capacitive coupling between the horizontal plate and tophat completey nulled out any attemps to create a phase difference between the two surfaces. After goofing around with this attempt at cheating the laws of physics off and on for about a year, I finally declared 'no mas!'
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby mrmodulation » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:28 am

Hi Kelly,
The Cabbary CFA Design is very primative to say the least! They sure are a very weird bit of gear and very touchy to get tuned correctly and the measured performance is different for each installation. I used to build antennas out of cat food cans on wooden sticks when I was a kid and had fun working the world on 27 mhz AM CB when the DX was in (1978). I soon realised if I played with the spacing between the cans and added an inductor to the top one the VSWR would increase and the radiation measured on a field strength meter would increase as well!

I noticed that when the coil value was varied the radiation would have a peak and this lead me to believe that the E and H fileds were correctly phased, when I measured the feed point with a bridge I borrowed from a friend that was a Ham it measured between 350 - 400 ohms! My trick was to peak the coil on the top can for the highest radiation on the FSM then use a cheap Radio Shack CB antenna tuner between the VSWR meter and feedline. I managed to get the match close (1:2:1) and the radiation increased to the point that I could light up a small floresent tube about 12 inches from the gap between the cans and I was only using 4 watts carrier @ 27 Mhz :D

This is totally the reverse of what is wriiten in books and against the theory we are tought about antenna systems. I have spent the last 30 years of my life building and testing these things with good results and there a 4 rules that must be followed to make a CFA or EH antenna work:

1. The radiation gap must be elevated 1/8 wave length mimimum above ground on an insulated mast to reduce ground loss and coupling to nearby metal objects like fencing or buildings and the feed line. (1/4 wave above ground is about optimum)

2. The shape of the elements have a huge effect on radiation angles

3. The lenght, diameter and spacing between elements controls bandwith

4. When the system is tuned correctly (phased) the Z in = 377 ohms approx this must be transformed to match the feed line correcly for maximum power transfer and efficiency.

I am hoping that some of the members here on the forum show some interst and I will post basic theory, circuit diagrams, designs and projects on my CFA topic page. so they can build and test there own and compare results. I will post some pictures of my experimental 6955 Khz antenna and I am hoping to have it back on the air again soon.

http://www.broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2969

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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Dave Loudin » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:04 am

STA application for dismantling of WGFP's tower and installation of long wire antenna has finally been filed.
What's that do....?
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Deep Thought » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:02 pm

"Emergency circumstances". Yeah, right. :roll:
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Kelly » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:47 pm

Have they done anything with the "monkey bar antenna"? Like dismantle it for scrap?
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby NECRAT » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:32 pm

Kelly wrote:Have they done anything with the "monkey bar antenna"? Like dismantle it for scrap?


It was still there in December. The long wire was in use then too.

Both have been in use for quite some time.
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby K4WRF » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:13 pm

Yeah, that big "whooshing" noise is not the hot wind blowing through the CF antenna, but the sound of James Clerk Maxwell spinning in his grave...

All the best!

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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby Kelly » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:47 am

MIke, has anyone ever actually heard the 'wire funnel' there radiate? A consultant friend of mine actually went to Egypt to evaluate the only known operating MW version of these things. The problem was they were never allowed to confirm the TPO, current or any other parameters which seems to indicate the efficiency isn't anywhere near the claims.
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Re: Crossed Field Antenna Test

Postby mrmodulation » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:37 am

There are 8 Kabbary CFA Antennas in 24 hour use worldwide.

Nanjing - China (25kW @ 900 kHz Built 2003)
Alexandria - Egypt (25kW @ 1197 kHz YEAR UNKNOWN)
Barnis - Egypt
(100KW @ 603 kHz Built 1997)
Cairo - Egypt (1kW @ 864 kHz YEAR UNKNOWN)
Halalb - Egypt (7kW @ 882 kHz YEAR UNKNOWN)
Tanta - Egypt (30KW @ 1161 kHz Built 1994)
Tanta - Egypt (100kW @ 864 kHz Built 1998)
SanRemo - Italy (6 kW @ 1188 kHz Built 1999)
Silsden - UK (TPO, Frequency & Build Date Unknown)

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